I’ve been seeing convos on the terms butch and femme between bi and lesbian women and ehhhhhhh, I’ve interacted with other nonhet women only online so my own thoughts are kind of.. not really the most weighted buuuuuut
tbh bi/pan women who are in relationships with just women or only date women who call themselves femme or butch is completely reasonable, and I don’t agree with lesbians who say bi women should never use those terms ever ever, cause that’s still within the definition of butch and femme (masculinity and femininity that doesn’t involve men), but the words sort’ve have jackshit meaning when it comes to relationships between men and women. so like, is a bi woman who’s been married to a guy really “femme”? nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
straight women can stay the fuck away from the femme and butch tho.
Omfg are you serious with this shit
Hiiiiiii, femmesbian here.
You see that hyperexclusive bullshit you’re using?
That’s a term literally any queer woman has rights to for any reason. It’s a term for gender presentation.
Butch and femme are terms used to describe individual gender identities in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and cross-dressing subcultures to ascribe or acknowledge a masculine(butch) or feminine (femme) identity with its associated traits, behaviors, styles, self-perception and so on. It is not solely a lesbian dyadic system, and insinuating it must be is insinuating that the two are dependent on each other and effectively straight-washing our relationships — it’s trying to find who the ‘man’ and ‘woman’ is in our relationships, even if you don’t mean it to be. Calling it lesbian exclusive or women who only love women/only to be used by women who are currently loving women is denying the personal experiences and gender identities of many bi, and pan woman identified folk who feel their gender presentation is an important part of their identity as a person and as a queer, and also those of lesbian women who may enter into butch-butch/femme-femme relationships by trying to fit it into a singular box.
So fuck off with all of that.
okay, you used gifs on me to show how truly passionate you are on this topic, so I’ll try to reply as well as I can (if you’ve gone to my page you’ll know I’m autistic, so u know)
the actual history of butch and femme is pretty easy to just look up, and gaypocalypse has a wonderful talk on the history lesbian and bi culture, so here http://gaypocalypse.tumblr.com/post/93274892826 because the way you’re talking about femme and butch as if they’re completely a-historical is not cool.
I’m sorry but if a word has any definition whatsoever it’s going to be exclusionary and not be able to describe every person for every situation. “twink” is not inter-changeable with butch, simply because they have a different history and a different meaning. they’re both apart of separate cultures that, while they face similar oppression, their experiences aren’t the same. so how can femme really a describe a feminine woman in a straight relationship, regardless of whether or not she herself is straight, when they are experiencing something different and are performing femininity for different reasons? the way a woman who dates women exclusively performs femininity is just not the same as a woman who performs femininity only/mostly for men, and it’s good for nonhet women to have a word to describe that. how is nonhet women who only date other women having words and meanings for themselves a bad thing? nonhet women are not one group with no differences between them and that should be ackowledged.
also, did you honestly refer to two with women with different levels of femininity dating “straightwashing”? seriously? butches are women. they stay women when they date femmes (or other butches!). they are not the same as a het couple. and I never said that if nonhet women used them with each-other they’d have to date with the butch-femme dynamic in mind. why did you go into a rant about singular boxes and whatever the fuck straightwashing is when I never said they had to date exactly like that?
have a gif
I haven’t gone to your page, I can only go based on the words I read from a post you made. In the end, not everyone will end up going to your page. I understand you are autistic, thank you for informing me. Your initial comment about my gif use was quite belittling. However, I still disagree with you. I still found your words offensive, and so I still stand by my post. Here’s why.
I have stated I am a lesbian who uses the femme label. Your insinuation that I somehow need to be schooled on the history of butch and femme comes across as quite insulting. Thank you kindly for the information, however, I know the history. Not every discussion of a queer issue needs a trotting out of the history when a simple redress suits well enough.
I don’t know where you’re pulling twink out of the air with when we’re discussing queer women using the labels femme or butch, but in no way is that a proper comparison — a term solely used by queer men in their community is in no way interchangeable with a term solely used by queer women in their community, and I honestly do not have a leg to stand on with the use of twink, as I am not a queer man, thereby it is not my term to argue for or against.
so how can femme really a describe a feminine woman in a straight relationship, regardless of whether or not she herself is straight, when they are experiencing something different and are performing femininity for different reasons?
Are you serious right now? The insinuation there is that somehow, a queer woman who dates men is less queer because she will enter into opposite sex relationships. It’s not okay. This is devaluing the queerness of bisexual and pansexual women and people in general. It’s gross.
The performance of femininity or masculinity may be different, but it is also going to be different in other ways — just because the experiences of a bisexual woman in a straight relationship may differ from those of say, a lesbian woman in a relationship, that does not negate her right to still be a feminine queer woman, thereby making her use of the femme label perfectly legitimate. You shouldn’t be policing queer people’s gender identities at any rate.
how is nonhet women who only date other women having words and meanings for themselves a bad thing? nonhet women are not one group with no differences between them and that should be ackowledged.
I never said it was. However, the term femme is the gender performance, the term afterward is the sexuality. Thereby, when I call myself a femme lesbian, or even a femmesbian, people know exactly my sexuality and my gender performance. When I use the term femme solely, people understand I am a feminine presenting queer woman. Lesbians have plenty of other words that are exclusive to our community, I promise. Similarly, I am quite aware of the fact that there are differences along the spectrum of queer women. This is queer 101, and I was schooled in that when I took my baby steps out of the closet ages ago.
also, did you honestly refer to two with women with different levels of femininity dating “straightwashing”?
No I did not, you misunderstood me. I referred to the need to maintain butch and femme by the scholarly community as a dyad of the lesbian community exclusively is straightwashing as it is inferring that there is a need for one or the other to survive, thereby reaching for the ‘male’ and ‘female’ of a lesbian relationship, which erases relationships wherein two butches or, as in my case, a femme lesbian and a femme bi woman are a couple.
With regards to your tags?? LGBT community is also known as the queer community. It is my goddamned right as a lesbian woman to choose to use the label queer. It is a reclamation of a slur against the community that became in wide use starting in the 80s, and is actively used by literally millions of LGBT people. We are queer. I am queer. My girlfriend is queer. My best friend is queer. My straight family members are queer allies. I will continue to use that label, it is not using it as a slur or a pejorative, thank you. Butch can be hurled at masculine presenting queer women as a pejorative. This does not stop it from being a reclaimed label. You have no right to police my use of it.
Listen, your attempts to splain my own sexuality to me, along with erasing the gender identity/right to use a proper gender performance label by my girlfriend based on her being bi have been cute, but I’m quite done with it.
"dont use queer when talking about the LGBT community" like are you forgetting about the QIA at the end of that? Where the Q literally stands for QUEER?